Episode 189: Interview with Justine Menter
Dr. Chelsea: Hi, I'm Dr. Chelsea. Welcome to Passion for Dance! It's my mission to create happier, more successful dancers through positive mental skills, and today I'm talking about making it as a professional dancer with my guest, Justine Menter.
Justine has over 15 years of experience in LA's entertainment industry as a choreographer, educator, and entrepreneur. She's best known for teaching Kim Kardashian on Keeping Up With the Kardashians and her professional work spans jobs on America's Got Talent, LMFAO, CBS, Fox, Hulu, Faith Hill, Sephora, The View, LA Fashion Week, just to name a few. She's currently a founding member of The Choreographers Guild. She hosts her own podcast, Dance Careers Unfiltered, and she's the founder of MNTR MGMT, career coaching for dance artists.
Justine has so much insight into what it takes to make it as a professional, and today she shares the pros and cons of being a freelance dancer, how she works through hard decisions, professional career paths you might not have considered before, the mindset of auditioning, and branding yourself as a professional dancer. If you were thinking about a professional career, Justine has so much advice to share with you today. I hope you listen in and share it with any aspiring professionals in your life.
And before I dive into the show, I want to invite you to follow wherever you are listening. It's free. It simply means that each new episode will show up in your podcast feed every Thursday. That simple follow is what allows me to keep creating these episodes for you. So please follow wherever you're listening now. And if you're not sure how, go to followthepodcast.com/passionfordance. You can do it with one click from there.
Thank you, as always, for your support of the show. Let's get into this conversation with Justine Menter!
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[Motivational Music]
Hi, I'm Dr. Chelsea, a former professional dancer and mental performance coach. I know what it feels like to be a passionate dance teacher who cares about your dancers, but you want to challenge them and help them be their best, and I also recognize that some traditions and teaching practices in the dance world are harmful. So I'm on a mission to change our dance industry by creating happier, more successful dancers using positive mental skills.
When you understand how to help your dancers with their confidence, how to find their own motivation, work together as a team and more, your dancers will unlock new levels of competitive success and happiness. And it's not just about them; you deserve the same. So we'll talk about how dance teachers can use positive mental skills to be more confident, resilient, and motivated as well.
Be sure to hit “subscribe” wherever you listen to podcasts. There are new episodes every Thursday, and each week you'll hear from me and my guests with advice and actionable tips for building mental toughness, covering topics about mindset, motivation, resilience, and building a community. Passion for Dance is a show designed to help dance educators like you have a positive impact on every dancer you teach.
[Motivational Music]
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Dr. Chelsea: Hi, Justine. Welcome to the show!
Justine M: Hi!
Dr. Chelsea: Will you introduce yourself? Tell us your dance background and your origin story.
Justine’s Dance Background and Origin Story – 3:01
Justine M: Absolutely. Hi, everybody! My name is Justine Menter, and I'm originally from Dallas, Texas, but I've been living in LA for a little over 17 years now. What can I tell you?
I grew up very heavily into ballet. I did RAD growing up, so I did all the examinations and performance awards and all of that. I was not a comp kid. Because I grew up in Texas, I did the drill team thing. So in high school, I was into that and got into hip-hop since that wasn't around when I was younger, and I loved the hip-hop! I just went to school. I went to Indiana University for school, but I did not major in dance. I decided to join a dance company there and just continue in the convention circuit. So that's what I did.
And then that led me to Monsters of Hip-Hop was just starting out when I was in college. (This is gonna age me a lot.) And basically, you know how it goes in the dance world, things kind of spiral into the next thing. So those opportunities opened doors for me in other places. I met a lot of wonderful mentors and was able to move to LA after college and got an agent and started that whole scene and route.
I quickly became a dance business owner. I started my own dance company called Flirt. It was an all-female dance entertainment company. We produced our own shows, and we also hired out dancers on jobs. So I was sort of acting like an agent with my dancers, and we did a lot of fun things. We produced red carpet events and held workshops and all that good stuff. I got a lot into teaching, got on the convention circuit, started working in choreography. That was where my passion lied. I did not like auditioning, and I wasn't very good at it. So, yeah.
Dr. Chelsea: That is such a fun evolution! You're right. Like, it just kind of goes to the next thing and what's the next thing.
Justine M: Yeah.
Dr. Chelsea: So when you were younger, was there an end goal or did you always just sort of, “Let's just see what this next step is”?
Justine M: That's a good question. I did not think I was going to pursue dance as a career. So that is kind of unique because — I'm sorry, not unique. It's ironic because that's what I do now for a living is I help people become professionals. And I just didn't think it was a possibility. I didn't think that I would be able to do that. And I think because I grew up so heavily in ballet, as soon as I got hips, it was like, “Nope. Sorry. You can't do this anymore.” So I was like, “Well, okay, that's that.” And then things started going in different ways.
I spent a couple of summers in New York City and then kind of got introduced to the lifestyle of it. You know, because it's not just loving dance, it's actually being immersed in the culture and in the lifestyle of being a freelancer. So that was a really cool awakening for me living there and seeing that.
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah. I wanted to ask about that kind of freelancer life. I've talked to lots of professionals about it, and it is something that I think gets maybe glamorized a little bit, and there's some of it that is really amazing and then some of that life that it's like you have to know what you're getting into, you know?
And so, will you share a little bit about that phase of your — I guess you've really always not only been a freelancer, but then starting your own business, kind of working for yourself. So maybe share some about that part of your career and challenges and good things of freelance and working for yourself?
Pros/Cons to Freelancing – 6:43
Justine M: Yeah. There are so many pros and cons to that. I think it's really important for dancers to know that you'll be a freelancer forever, really. You know, you go from gig to gig, and that's how it goes if you are on the performance track. You can earn income and do other consistent things in different ways like I did with running my own businesses and, you know, working things on the side.
For a lot of people who are auditioning and dancing and doing gig life, then that is a freelance life forever. So I still am a freelancer. I still, even as a teacher, you know, that's freelance, unless you obviously have a residency at a studio or you're working full time as a competition director or teacher. Obviously, those things are different, but industry-wise, you're going to be a freelancer, and that's not going to end. You always have to work for the next job.
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah. Do you find that inspiring and exciting, daunting? How do you feel about that phase of where you always have to look for the next thing?
Justine M: Yeah, I find it a lot of different things, and I think it's changed through my life because now I'm in such a different season as a mom, and I’m just older. I'm not in the audition circuit anymore like that. I do and have had representation in commercial, print, and on-camera work for pretty much the same amount of time I've had dance representation. So I'm not auditioning for dance jobs anymore, but I am doing commercial auditions weekly.
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah. So it's always still a part of your —
Justine M: It's just a part of it. I think you just have to accept it. It comes from a place of accepting that this is the life that I've chosen. That doesn't mean you can't change it, right? It doesn't mean you can't change it, but I think there has to just be an acceptance there of, “This is how it is, and if I need to change this in certain ways or some times, and then go back into it or not,” I think that that has to be okay.
If you are a person that doesn't like inconsistency or craves that stability way more, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with finding jobs that align more with your core values.
Dr. Chelsea: Absolutely. And so, there are jobs, then, that are more stable and consistent, or you're saying that in your experience helping mentees the dance industry doesn't support that?
Justine M: That is a good question. I think yes and no. I think it's hard to have the kind of what people would call, and I'm using air quotes here, “survival jobs,” which for some people is teaching dance, for some people it's working at a restaurant or retail or whatever it might be, or Uber now. And it's hard to continue that and also be able to meet the demands of the, what's the word here, kind of quickness of the way the industry flows. Like, you get a self-tape, you get an audition, and that is happening tomorrow, and you have to be able to adjust your schedule very, very quickly.
So the entertainment industry does not really support a job that's super steady because you have to be able to have the flexibility. So it just depends on what the job is. And also, if you love teaching dance and you're still immersed in the dance world, you're making money, you're around kids, you're giving back to your community, you're using everything that your teachers have given you and that is fulfilling for you, then that is a dance career, and that is fantastic. You know?
So I think that it's up to the artist to decide what fulfills them and what sacrifices or things in their life they're willing to give or not give when they're pursuing the career.
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah, I appreciate that you're bringing up, you know, values and what's right for you and finding that path that fits you and what you want and your goals. And so, that, I think, is part of what you bring in your work is helping dancers understand what's next. “How do I make these choices? How do I know what should be the next thing in my path?” And so, before we get to advice for dancers, would you be willing to share a hard career decision that you had to make along the way and how you did that?
Making Difficult Career Decisions – 11:16
Justine M: Gosh, I feel like it's just been a series of hard decisions. Mine really go along with my businesses. So when I had to stop my dance entertainment company, that was an extremely difficult decision for me because I felt like my whole identity was wrapped up in being this business owner and doing all the things that I was doing with Flirt and with the dancers and having that community built in, and stepping away from that was extremely difficult. But it ended up being a financial decision and just something logistic. It wasn't that I didn't love it. It was just, you know, one of those adult-type decisions. And I think as I move forward in the industry, and for 17 years here, now, in LA, I feel like I've kind of consistently had to face different decisions where I've had to face a fork in the road and make a decision one way or the not.
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah, it’s so hard to make a choice to leave something we love when it doesn't fit with goals or life right now, but you still love it. That makes it challenging. So when you have this fork in the road that keeps coming up, do you have a go-to for how you can work through it?
Justine M: I am a big journaler. I love journaling, yeah. For me, it's really therapeutic. I don't do it enough as I'd like to, but I do find that I can find a lot of clarity when I just write down things. And the first step in that, too, is quieting the noise. So turning off social media, turning off my phone and not being so immersed in what everybody else is doing is really, really beneficial and has helped me more times than not.
So yeah, my first step is quieting the noise, and my second step is getting super internal and doing the journaling — and basically stream of consciousness. I'm not doing a gratitude journal. I'm doing stream of consciousness, diary-style, right?
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah. Oh, that's great advice. And I like the quieting the noise first, because usually when you have those hard decisions, a lot of other people (even helpful) have thoughts and ideas about what should be right for you and being able to quiet that and listen to yourself first, that's great advice, yeah.
Justine M: Yeah, for sure.
Dr. Chelsea: Anything else — I was going to ask, I guess, for advice, but that might just be it. But something else you would add for dancers who are pursuing their career or just aren't sure what's next for them and how to make those hard decisions?
Justine M: What I normally tell my clients, honestly, is to break things down into really little baby steps because I think, especially as artists, we have all these dreams, we have all these aspirations and all these exciting things we want to do and all these exciting things that we see other people doing. So it gets really loud in there, you know? Like, just kind of all these hopes and dreams and it's bursting out of us, and we want to do so much, and we want to feel, and we want to use our passion for good and we want to make money, right? And we have to live, and we have to pay our rent.
But I think if we break it down smaller, that is where the wins come. And that's what I do with my clients is, “Oh, I want to be a commercial –.” I work with a lot of commercial dancers, right? Because I'm based in LA. That's where my expertise lies. “Oh, I want to be a commercial dancer. I just moved to LA. I'm not being seen. I'm not getting the auditions that I want. I don't feel like — I can't post on social media,” so there’s stuff there. There's a lot of different things going on and wrapped up with that, and it's always just a matter of breaking it down into actionable steps and easy things that they can do — not easy, sorry. Simple, more simple things. Yeah, so that they can feel a sense of accomplishment in that, because it's hard when you're basing your identity off of the wins that you may or may not actually achieve.
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah. Oh, you are speaking my language. That ability to focus on small wins, those areas of growth, not just, you know, “Success is when I got that job or not,” yeah.
Justine M: Yeah, and you have to find your own ways, like what your own definition is of the win, right? It can't just be — I say, actually, I post this like every New Year's where it's like, “Booking a job can't be your New Year's resolution.”
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah.
Justine M: Because it's out of your hands. You know, you can be like, “I'm going to get some bomb headshots,” or “I'm going to update my website,” or “I'm going to reach out to X, Y, and Z, I'm going to go to coffee with this friend,” you know? Like, you can make certain types of goals like that, but you can't have booking a job as your resolution because you're not booking you on the job.
Dr. Chelsea: Right. Yeah. Great advice to be able to put it on your vision board, know that you want that in the long run, but it's not actually the goal. The goal is the steps that will get you to that thing so that you can feel it. Yeah, absolutely.
When you were talking to your mentees and you said a lot of them are looking for commercial jobs because you're in LA, makes sense. So, what are some different career options for dancers? Do you feel like — I guess I'm looking for ones that maybe young dancers are not familiar with, or they think, “I can move to LA or move to New York and then that's it,” like, what kinds of career options they can look for?
Career Opportunities for Dancers – 16:39
Justine M: Well, there are a few things within the dance industry. So you could work for a dance competition. They are always looking for people. I actually think it's a really nice way to kind of be in the scene and to network with people because you're meeting all types of studio owners and students and choreographers and teachers. So I think that's a wonderful way to get your foot in the door, especially because the connections are everything.
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah. That is life, yes, in general.
Justine M: Yeah, with everything, yeah. And so, I'd say that is a good track. If you want to travel on the weekends, then that's a great job to have because then you could spend during the week doing your classes and auditions. I would say some other jobs that maybe people are aware of but maybe undervalue are amusement parks and cruise ships and resorts.
Dr. Chelsea: Okay.
Justine M: So looking into different corporate avenues. Hair shows and things like that are super fun. You can look into different companies who do industrials, a lot of corporate work. Vegas has a lot of that, and you can look on, you know, Universal Studios because they offer benefits and stuff too, and you can perform every day. And obviously the cruise ship is great. I mean, you're performing every day, and you don't have any expenses. So that is an awesome bonus. And then I would say there's, of course, what I mentioned before, teaching in a studio, that's a great route. It's a little slim picking, I do have to say.
Dr. Chelsea: No, I think those are great ideas, yeah.
Justine M: We don’t have, like, a million options, but I think there are a lot of jobs out there that people might not be thinking of or they're undervaluing because they're not standing behind Justin Bieber or an artist, right?
Dr. Chelsea: Right. Yeah.
Justine M: So it's maybe not as cool looking, you know?
Dr. Chelsea: Sure.
Justine M: But I think you get into it because you want to do what you love every day and get paid for it.
Dr. Chelsea: Mm-hmm.
Justine M: And so, that can look a lot of different ways.
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah, oh, I think that's great. A reframe a little bit. It's not that it's a lesser job or that it's not what you're really looking for. It's all of that is going to lead to the next thing. Like you were talking about in your own journey. You don't know where that, you know, convention job will lead you. You don't know where that amusement park job will take you. So you're just accumulating experiences, and especially I think when we’re younger, you know, late teens, twenties, we're trying to figure out what we want. And sometimes you don't know until you do it. You have to go see what fits.
Justine M: Right. One hundred percent. I totally agree with that, and I stand by that philosophy a lot.
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah. Good. Thank you. Let's shift to auditioning a little bit, because I think that is an important part of this career path. So let's say the dancer knows a little bit about what they want. They know they want to be a professional, so they're ready to start auditioning. What is your go to audition advice for the dancers you're working with?
Audition Advice – 19:45
Justine M: Yeah, it's a little bit like the digital advice. It's kind of drowning out the noise. You go to an audition, and it's really overwhelming because you are in the sea with all the people who have been there forever and the people who are just getting there. So you're on an even playing field, but it's not really even because the people who are there have way more experience than you and way more connections. They might know the people behind the table, they might not. So if you can go in and mentally prepare yourself, right, that you're going to be thrown into the deep end with all the sharks and everybody else, then you know that maybe that might not be as overwhelming for you.
And I think some actionable ways you can do that is by getting there early. You might not want to sign in early. I don't suggest that. I do suggest, though, getting there early and not being stressed out because parking is a disaster, especially in LA. Traffic is a disaster. You might think you're gonna get there. You're not. Just know that. You are not. Get there super early, park. Don't sit on your phone in the car. Put on a podcast or a song, like some hype-up songs or something. Make sure you're well nourished, and just make sure you're taking your care of yourself mentally before the auditions because it's so much of a mental game there as well.
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah. Oh, absolutely.
Justine M: And you have to stay on it for quite a long time. If it's a non-union audition, you might be there for hours, and you might be waiting outside. You might know no one. I mean, my first audition in LA, this was for, it was a JLo something. I don't know. I can't remember exactly what it was. It was Rich + Tone. And I knew one person in LA, and it was one dancer, you know, who was doing the audition scene. I show up. I'm in my Steve Madden pumps, because there were no Burju shoes then for heels. And I show up, and they're like, “Thank you.” Before we even danced, they're going down the line. “Thank you.” “Please stay.” “Thank you.” “Please stay.” And I'm like, “Thank you? Oh, yeah, you're welcome. I'm so glad that you're happy I'm here!” right? And little did I know that “thank you” was like “see ya later.” And I was like, “But I didn't even get to dance.”
So it's just like you don't know what's going to happen, and it's so out of your hands that the only thing that you can do is show up and be the best you, and the rest is out of your hands.
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah.
Justine M: So, yeah, getting there early, having a good breakfast, and drowning out the noise. Those are my audition tips.
Dr. Chelsea: That's all great. And I talk a lot about mental skills and mental preparation, and everything you're talking about is focusing on what's in your control and being able to be intentional about that. It's such good advice, especially being early so that you are not scattered before you get there, you know, feeling that sense of confidence and music too. I think music is an undervalued tool. Like, what's the mood that you need? Do you need to calm down? Do you need to hype up? Like, how are you feeling? What style are you about to do? Yeah, using that to your advantage to put yourself in a good mindset.
Justine M: Yeah.
Dr. Chelsea: Another mental skill I think that would matter a lot in auditions is staying focused. So any tips about that? Like when you say drowning out the noise when you're in there, either you as a dancer or what you have helped your mentees do, how do you stay focused when you're in that audition room and you're one of so many people?
Justine M: The first thing that comes to mind, and there might be way better answer to this, but I'd say focus on eyes and ears. So what are you seeing? What are you hearing? What can you learn from this situation? Like I mentioned before, I wasn't a great auditioner, but it's not because I wasn't a talented dancer, per se, or I couldn't keep up, but it's because I was honestly pretty distracted. I really wanted to be behind the table, and I was really curious about what was going on with the process of the audition and what was the producer saying and doing and what were they looking for. It was just a lot of that for me, so I think I was pretty distracted.
So focus-wise, I'd say remember why you're there and focus on what you can see, like who's doing great, who's being kept, you know, so really kind of learning and being curious about the situation and remembering that you are at this free opportunity to learn and grow and do what you need to do because auditioning is 100% a part of the process. You can't get around that. So if you recognize it's part of the job, like you are a professional auditioner, and you're going there, you don't have to pay for that class, but you're going and getting to work with a choreographer who's working. You get to see their assistants, meet their assistants. That's a good way to kind of get in too. “Who are they working with? How can I get into their class? How can I get connected with them?” So kind of like doing your research while you're there but not on your phone or not on your laptop, you know what I mean?
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah, absolutely. No, that makes a lot of sense. Focus is hard.
Justine M: Super.
Dr. Chelsea: And I think your advice about what you see and what you hear makes perfect sense. And, you know, there's good research to back you up that your intuition is totally right. You know, what you're looking at makes a difference. What are you listening to? And if you're worried about, you know, the producers rustling papers and whispering and you're focused there instead of the person who is giving you choreography in front of you, that is an easy way to completely get fully distracted and not be able to execute the way you want to, yeah.
Justine M: Yeah, and I'd also say preparation. So do your research before you walk in the room. Who the choreographer is, what the job is, the production team, if that's a part of it, and making sure that you feel prepared in that situation. Have your dance bag ready to go. Have the right — you know, your headshot and resume printed if they ask for that. Make sure it's industry standard. If you don't know how to do that, you can contact yours truly. But I think that's so much a part of it these days is being ready on a moment's notice, especially because everything's moving so quickly, is going to work to your benefit.
Dr. Chelsea: Absolutely. I was going to ask about preparation because a lot of it, again, that's in your control is to know what they need and make sure that what you're bringing is what they've asked for, right? That you've done the research to know exactly what they're looking for or how they want you to present, you know. And that your bag is packed with all your favorite things, so there's no stress over, “I can't find that lipstick.” Like, it's all there, and you know what you want. So I think that kind of pre-audition prep is huge. And the mental side too, like we were talking about, being able to, you know, “What am I listening to? What am I thinking about beforehand?” That kind of stability, having a ritual beforehand.
Justine M: Finding the formula that works for you. And that could even be with outfits and things. Have some basic ones that you feel awesome in that you can kind of change up depending on the job. Also, like, know how you're going to do the best job that you can and stick with that formula.
Dr. Chelsea: Right. Oh, I love that. Yeah, we know consistency helps our confidence. Being able to say, “I know when I wear this, I feel confident. I know when I've done this background work, I feel confident. I know when I eat this breakfast, I feel good.” Having that consistent prep helps with your confidence in the moment, because there's just no other distractions. It's just me in the room, and I'm ready to be my best. Yeah.
Justine M: Yeah, for sure.
Dr. Chelsea: I love that. I want to shift to asking about personal branding because the dance industry is definitely different from when I was a professional, when you were a professional. It just doesn't look the same anymore. Your personal brand, your social media presence matters. So will you share your views on branding as a professional today?
Personal Branding as a Dancer – 27:57
Justine M: Yeah, this seems to be the question I get asked a lot, and it's fun to talk about. It's, like, a scary topic, I think. But I think it's fun to explore your brand and what that is. And I just want to be clear that your brand is you. It's not something that you create and, like, “Oh my gosh, I have to make this crazy logo, and I have to go and hire somebody and a graphic designer and a web designer to do all this stuff.” No, it's basically just you showing up authentically online or, you know, visually so that people recognize what you do and what you stand for consistently.
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah, I like that. And not that — so I could see the misconception that the brand is like, “I have to have a persona.” It's like, no, it's not a version of you. It's you. It's just making sure that that is authentically displayed.
Justine M: Yeah, it's not putting on a Sasha Fierce. Although, you could do that, and I know that there's a lot of people who struggle with the concept of branding because when they perform, they're such a different person than their kind of everyday personality and what they bring to the table. And so, I totally get that. And sometimes it can feel performative, and you don't want it to feel that way. But I would say it's really up to each individual to decide how they want to show up online. So if you don't want to show your personality behind performing, then don't show that. I think you can only show up authentically as you as long as it is manageable and sustainable, so you have to be able to find the things that you feel comfortable with.
This is probably my most-asked question. In my DMs, people behind the scenes, or with clients, or whatever it might be, it's like, “I don't know what to post. I don't know how to show up as myself. I feel super, super self-conscious in what I'm posting that it paralyzes me, and I don't end up posting the thing.” And I completely resonate with that as well. Like, I think everybody does at some point, because it feels like a lot of pressure.
But basically the advice I give is kind of the same thing with the actual steps, small things. I'm like, “Post an eight count. Post one picture. Post something that's easy, that you feel confident with, and then make a schedule, and go with that for a while and see how you feel. And then that might change and shift because your brand will change and shift as well, right? You might be on tour for nine months and want to showcase that, and then what happens when you get back to LA, New York, Atlanta, wherever you are, and all of a sudden your life looks completely different, which it will as a freelance dancer. Your life is going to be super, super up and down. So, it's kind of like rolling with that tide and just being okay with showing what you can and making sure that you feel comfortable with that, and you feel confident, and you feel like you can maintain that, because it's not just about what you put out, it's how much you do it.
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah. Oh, that's great advice. And I think especially the younger, or I'll say newer-to-the-industry dancers, if you're looking at somebody else's social media presence, somebody you admire, they are maybe years further down the journey than you are. And then I see with the dancers I talk to (and you can tell me if you see that as well), that comparison comes in. Like, “Well, my brand has to show up that polished,” and it's not that polished yet, and that's okay. Do you find that comparison in your clients?
Justine M: Oh, for sure. Yeah, I think, I mean, even for myself, I'm looking at even young dancers who are still in the audition circuit and they're posting like really cool jobs. And I still get that, like, “Wait, dang, I wanted to be doing that,” but I'm like, “Oh no. I'm beyond that stage. I'm in a different phase.” And so, it's setting those boundaries.
I said the thing on Instagram, like I can only spend a certain amount of time on there. So it sends me a reminder, whatever it is. There's only so much that we can just be staring at other people and feel like it doesn't have an effect on us. I mean, it has a major effect on us.
Dr. Chelsea: Absolutely.
Justine M: So, yeah, you cannot compare your journey to someone else's because everybody's timing looks different. That's the most amazing thing about dance and having a career in the arts is that you can do whatever you want to do, and it can look like however you want it to look like. And that's also the hardest part about having a career in dance and arts is that there is no set rule book. There is no set way to do it. It's not like being a doctor where you have specific steps you have to take. You have to take a test. You have to do this. There's none of that in dance. It's kind of a free for all.
Dr. Chelsea: Right.
Justine M: So that can feel really daunting because you don't know exactly what to do, and you're so consumed with being your authentic self but also making money but also trying to do what everyone else does and seeing that that might work for them. “That formula works for them, but it might not work for me.” So I think it's a lot of experimentation about what feels right and what you can kind of keep up with and knowing that it's okay and knowing that it will change.
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah, there is no roadmap. Sometimes we want the roadmap. Like, “Tell me exactly what to do, XYZ, and I'll get there.” And I agree, though. It's kind of the beauty of it, that you get to create your road. You're building it as you go, and if you see that as a beautiful thing, as a good thing, rather than a scary thing, it's that kind of reframe around how you feel about it. That makes sense. Yeah, absolutely.
And I totally agree with the boundaries on social media. I, too, have reminders. I need to watch how much I spend on it. And when you've noticed yourself, you know, in a bad mood or struggling when you're consuming, I always try to redirect. I'm like, “When you feel like consuming is bringing you down, go create.” And as an artist, let's just get out of consuming and go create because that's, for many of us, when you shut out the noise and turn into yourself and what you can create that helps so much. And it could be dance, but it could also be, you know, journaling or drawing or anything, but just get out of consuming. Yeah.
Justine M: Yes, I love that. “Don't consume, create.” That’s beautiful.
Dr. Chelsea: Thank you. I was just thinking about that earlier today, and what you said made me think about it, that it's very easy to get stuck in consuming.
So I want to talk about getting unstuck because I think that's part of this process too, right? That we — like you said, the ups and downs, you might have a great job that's nine months, and then all of a sudden you're auditioning for a long time, feel like nothing's happening, that sense of, “I’m just stuck.”
So was there a time in your own professional career that you felt stuck and/or a mentee that you've helped through that you can kind of share the story with us?
Getting Unstuck – 35:00
Justine M: Yeah, I was trying to think about this one. I think personally, for me, I mean, to be totally honest recently, I felt really stuck. I felt like kind of in a crossroads. I kind of stepped away from my business a little bit. (Not a little bit, a lot a bit). I just needed to kind of reassess my goals and where I was spending my time, and I got really burnt out from constantly creating content that I was putting pressure on myself, kind of like unnecessary deadlines and pressures on myself that was like not helping anybody. And so, I was like, “I'm just going to take a step away from this.”
So I think that stuck part was like, “Okay, I just need to remove myself from the situation, say no to some things,” you know? Like, say no to some jobs that weren't maybe working for me or kind of pushing me in a direction that I wanted to go at the time.
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah.
Justine M: So right now, for sure, I feel like in that kind of crossroadsy moment, and I'm not really out of it, but I'm working through it, I guess would be — I'm kind of wading in the shallow end, kind of doing certain things, but I'm not quite out to sea right now.
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah, I appreciate that vulnerability. I think a lot of us feel that way. I've definitely felt stuck, you know, later in career phases. It's not just a youth thing, that we get suck at different times, yeah.
Justine M: Yeah, and I mean, you're in different seasons of your life, and it changes and, you know, priorities change, and things that you might have really valued or enjoyed before might not even be the things that you value and enjoy now. So I think recognizing that is good. Again, going internal, doing the small steps, doing the little things, building confidence in different ways is helpful for me and also mentees.
I would say a lot of the time a lot of the experiences that I can relate to with different mentees is when they've come off a big job. So that's kind of been a bit of a recurring theme. Like, they were on a cruise, and they were smooth sailing (no pun intended), and then they get back home, and it's, again, as a contractor it's back on the grind, right? So that kind of displacement and the shift in routine is very discombobulating, you know? And then you're overwhelmed with the things you want to do again, that artist, “Hey, I want to do everything!” And then it ends up you just feel like you can't do anything because you're just stuck on a hamster wheel.
So, again, the advice I give is just the small steps and then really reframing and seeing what it is that they want to do, going through options of different types of jobs that they want to do that’re on their list, and then working backwards of how to get there.
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah. Oh, that's great advice. And I think you're right. Those big transitions are often when we feel stuck, and it could be job transitions. It's life transitions. Even really good things. Even, you know, new relationships or moving or children. Those big life changes also disrupt your schedule and disrupt your sense of normal, like you said, your values or what your priorities are. And we don't usually pause and actually think about it. And that's, I think, where that burnout comes from.
Justine M: Yeah, because we're so busy and so overstimulated all the time that it's like you don't even have the option to sit with anything anymore. It's like we're just all so frazzled, overstimulated, getting outraged online, you know, comparison online or whatever it might be, or jumping from job to job. And, you know, a lot of people have four different jobs at a time or whatever it might be or juggling so many different roles. You know, it's a lot going on right now. It's a crazy time.
Dr. Chelsea: It is. And I think that's an important point to intentionally pause, that we don't do it enough. And we’ve been talking about journaling. I agree. I am a big proponent of journaling, and yet I know and can admit I don't do it enough. And even when you have the tools, you can still get stuck enough that you're like, “Oh yeah, I haven't done that in a while. I know it works and I still haven't done it.” So that was a good reminder, yeah.
Justine M: Yeah, definitely.
Dr. Chelsea: Is there anything else that you want to share or mention, something we haven't talked about that you think would be really helpful for people on their professional journey?
Remember Your Why – 39:28
Justine M: I really think it's a matter of remembering your why and just keep on going and continuing to move forward no matter what, because nobody in the end knows you better than you, and I think you just have to confidently move in the direction of your dreams and the way that you want it to because it'll look different to everybody else. So keep on keeping on!
Dr. Chelsea: I like that. Will you share how people can find you and your work if they're looking for more help with this?
Connect with Justine – 39:58
Justine M: Absolutely. So you can find me on Instagram. I have a personal account, which is just @justinementer. And also my professional account, which is @MNTR.MGMT on Instagram where I share a lot of career advice for dancers. And I have my own podcast, Dance Careers Unfiltered that Dr. Chelsea has been on before. And yeah, I'm on all those things, so come and find me! I always love a chat, and I'm open to all different types of conversations.
Dr. Chelsea: Yeah, thank you! We will definitely make sure everything is linked to go check out her podcast, for sure, and connect. Thank you, Justine for sharing today. It was wonderful to chat with you!
Justine M: You're so welcome. It's a pleasure!
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Thank you for listening to Passion for Dance! You can find all episode resources at www.chelseapierotti.com/podcast, and be sure to follow me on Instagram for more high-performance tips at @dr.chelsea.pierotti. This podcast is for passionate dance teachers and coaches who are ready to change the dance industry by creating happier, more successful dancers. I'm Dr. Chelsea and keep sharing your passion for dance with the world.
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